VEGAN AMERICA REVOLT!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Parano1d on October 20, 2008 at 1:59pm

yeah, i understand vegetarian, but vegan in my opinion is just an attempt at attention, your not hurting an animal by taking their milk, its actually very unhealthy to not milk a cow.

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Permalink Reply by Parano1d on October 20, 2008 at 2:00pm

If i could live without yummy juicy steak, then i would be vegetarian, but its just too good. Just buying farm grazing meat can help.

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Permalink Reply by Huwdlum on October 21, 2008 at 9:48pm

i understand. i just dont like meat lol. my little brothers art teacher is also insane lol. im glad he got fired. =P

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Permalink Reply by Cat on November 5, 2008 at 12:32pm

one of the vegetarian books I read argues that mistreating an animal, killing it, and perhaps damaging our environment to do so just because you like the taste of meat is selfish and in fact wrong. I'm not trying to attack you, just thorwing a different view out there.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa on November 5, 2008 at 12:39pm

I agree. If you liked the taste of your mother would you eat her? If you liked your neighbors car would it be okay to take it just because you wanted it?

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Permalink Reply by SaucedWon on November 29, 2008 at 2:01pm

Parano1d, You must realize that cows only produce milk if they are pregant. Factory farms will constantly artificially inseminate their cows to keep them pregnant at all times. We can estimate that half the calves born are going to be male calves, or bulls as they are commonly known. Where do you think these bulls go? They are sold for slaughter. So by using dairy products you are causing the deaths of many animals for no good reason. We are the only species that feels the need to drink another species milk. Think about how strange this really is.

You only reveal your own ignorance by saying things like that. And as a vegan i find it insulting to say that i am trying to gain attention. Do your research before you speak.

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Permalink Reply by Rachel on December 29, 2008 at 6:03pm

It's true. You're not hurting a cow by taking it's milk. You are, however, hurting the cow by cramming it into filthy conditions full of disease, starving it, and then cutting it's throat in the end anyway when it stops pumping out your quota.

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Permalink Reply by slain1134 on October 20, 2008 at 2:34pm

Really, no side is better than the other. We all make conscious choices on how we want to live. Whether you like to sink your teeth into a big juicy steak, or enjoy a nice plate of greens, neither side is better than the other. Really what get's my goat ;) is the fact that both sides run the risk of catching something from the foods we eat. It seems there have been more cases this year alone as far as tainted food goes, than any other. I have no solid proof, nor have a extensively reseached this subject, but it's wrong. It seems the ONLY way you can for sure trust in the food that you're putting into your belly, is if you're out in your own garden, growing your own veggies, milking your own cow, feeding those cows natural grains from your own grain field. That to me is pretty sad. Why can't I go to the store, and buy whatever it is i choose to eat, and really trust that what I'm putting into my body is safe? It seems in order to have any kind of peace of mind, you need to be your own farmer, doing all your own work, and making all the natural decisions. Last time I checked, I'm not a farmer, and even if I wanted to be, it's not in my lease agreement to plant any crops, in my yard, and I definately would have to pay a huge pet deposit for that cow I would need.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa on October 26, 2008 at 2:15pm

First, let me say that I am so happy that there are other vegans/vegetarians on this site. :-)

Now, for the argument of "why bother?" below is my reply. I am not saying that this is the reason EVERYONE should be a vegan like me, but it is food for thought, literally.

I became vegetarian when I learned about the brutal treatment of factory-farmed animals. I became vegan when I learned about the social, economic, and environmental impacts of human consumption of animal products:

1) SOCIAL: Did you know that the word capital (money) comes from the Latin "capita," meaning "head," as in head of goat or cattle? Also, the ancient Sanskrit word for war, "gavyaa" literally means "the desire for more cattle." It's interesting that the issues that haunt us so much in modern America have their roots in these terms that were given their meaning based on the use of animals by humans. It's also interesting that a plant-based diet is incredibly inexpensive (I buy all organic [which most people think is super-expensive; it’s not compared to buying meat] and I try to buy all local; since going vegan I've saved about $70/month on my food expenses. As a society, though, we try to make meat a "convenience" food (think McDonald's) and we have nonsensical ideas that meat protein is necessary for good health (my Dr., who has told me that I am healthier than 95% of all her patients, disagrees with this). If we could show people in poorer communities to eat healthy fruits, greens, and grains, rather than base their diet on meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner, they would not only have better health, but they would have more money. And since we're all on the same page when it comes to the need for empowering others, I think we will agree that this would be a very positive thing.

Humans haven't always been dependent on the commodification of animals. In fact, it wasn't until about 10K years ago in Iraq that humans began herding animals, calling them property, and breeding them for "desirable" characteristics (rather than hunting them in the wild, as was the previous norm). Just as we can say that the enslavement of Africans in the US still impacts our country today, the start of a global herding culture impacts us today, as well. We refuse to look at food for what it is (the death of another being who desires to live in peace as much as we do), and because we can somehow justify in our minds that killing these living beings is "okay" we ingrain in ourselves that harm of others - human and nonhuman - is okay. What I am writing is backed up by the writings of dozens of experts (anthropologists, psychologists, and other scholars), and has been a main teaching of the Dalai Lama. If you'd like more information, please read The World Peace Diet by Dr. William Tuttle; it is one of the most important books of our times, and if we ascribed to Dr. Tuttle's teachings I think our change in attitude towards animal would trickle down to our change in attitude toward our human brothers and sisters. In fact, people who work in factory farms encounter much higher rates of domestic violence and suicide than the rest of the population; I think this speaks volumes to how our treatment of cattle reflects the treatment of humans.

2) ECONOMIC: I could write pages on this topic, but the gist is very simple. It is very difficult (not impossible, but very difficult) for small, “humane” farmers to make money by raising animals for human consumption. In order to meet the overwhelming demand for US animal consumption, factory farms have evolved to maximize both production and profits. Animals in factory farm settings - which is between 90 and 95% of all meat consumed in the US, depending on which source you trust - almost always require animals to be crammed into areas that are much too small for them to be comfortable (i.e. pregnant pigs do not have the ability to move anyway but stand up or sit on their legs [not actually lay down] and egg-laying hens are often kept 6 in a crate, and cannot spread their wings). Under FDA regulations, these animals are permitted to sleep in their own feces, and often the urine of animals stacked in crates on top of them will drip down on them (if you’ve actually been in a factory farm, the smell of the ammonia is overwhelming). All of this is done not with the animal's rights in mind, but with the profit of the producer in mind. This has been documented more times than I could list, and I'm sure you've all seen on the news terrible stories where cattle that was too sick to be taken to slaughter was dragged with a hook through it's anus to the slaughterhouse, or was picked up with a fork lift and dropped on the ground before being killed for food. I know it's graphic, but it's what happens.

Furthermore, and back to my point regarding economics, factory farms with undesirable practices put small farmers out of business. I live in Kentucky, which is an agricultural state. One of my friends' families had historically raised cattle (as well as fruits and veggies) to sell as their main source of income. However, because they can only manage a handful of cattle at a time (and they refuse to lower themselves to the standards of factory farms) they simply cannot make sufficient profit on their cattle to sustain the family. Now the only cattle they raise is what the family will eat each year; the family works outside of the house now to pay their bills, and they have a tough time doing that in this economy. This is why organic and free-range food is so expensive: it costs far more to produce it and for the farmers to actually make money (and please be aware that just because food is listed as organic or free-range doesn't mean it is: FDA regulations are a JOKE, and therefore you should always check to ensure that a 3rd party, such as Oregon Tilth has verified that the product is, actually, what it is labeled).

3) ENVIRONMENTAL: By going vegan I did more for our environment than you will if you switch from a standard to a hybrid car (and, since someone on here said that one person stopping eating meat won't actually save an animal, I feel obligated to include that stopping eating meat will actually save 9 animals each year. The fruit of your labor may be small, but every small step towards justice is absolutely needed). I think we all know that the methane let off by factory-farmed animals is outrageous and a huge detriment to our environment. Equally as terrifying is that we use such a ridiculous amount of land to raise grain to feed to cattle, cattle that will then be fed to humans -- why wouldn't we use that grain to feed humans DIRECTLY?! Now wouldn't that be a great step towards ending world hunger?! Our land is ravaged for animal consumption; rain forests are being torn down so that grains can be grown for cattle, and so that cattle can be raised on the newly-cleared land. It’s a sad cycle.

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I know you will say, "Melissa, why don't you just buy from local farms where you know that the animals are treated well," but I just can't. My logic and interactions with animals have clearly shown me that animals desire freedom as much as we do. Pigs cry when their piglets are taken away just as a human mother would if her baby were stripped from her arms. Cows try to run when they know they are being taken to slaughter. Eating an animal, or using an animal because I "want" to (and let me just confirm that I don't think there is any reason any human "needs" to use an animal – thousands of vegans have proven otherwise) is, IMO, a violent act that any person who believes in freedom cannot partake of. I think it is so sad to hear people say "I can't stop eating meat because it tastes so good." Would you eat your mother if you thought she would taste good? Would you steal your neighbor's car just because you "wanted it?" I would think not.

Again, this is just food for thought. I'm not asking you to stop eating animal products today (although it would be great if you would), but I think it's important that we make informed decisions, and what we eat is a decision we make every single day of our lives.

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Permalink Reply by Andro on October 26, 2008 at 7:50pm

While these are all valid considerations, it's something I don't see myself acting on. I want to continue eating meat, however, I want to do so more sparingly in the future.

However, what I want to do first and foremost is to at least eliminate the harsh conditions of factory farms. The ridiculous use of antibiotics, the food the animals get, etc. Plus, if factory farming were to be eliminated, perhabs through a government ban, the price of meat would rise. Thus, hopefully encouraging people to eat it more sparingly as it would no longer be an inexpensive choice.

For something like this to happen, there would need to be cooperation between those who eat meat and want things to change and vegetarians/vegans. Unfortunately, organizations like PETA continue to push the rift between meat-eaters who mean well and the veg community meaning that a step forward such as this can't happen, and through this they are damaging their own goals.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa on October 27, 2008 at 4:46pm

Yes, I agree that cutting back on meat is truly "voting with your fork," and a good choice for people who don't wish to eliminate meat from their diet all together.

I'm interested in the idea of not using antibiotics, though. I have read reports that conclude in two different directions: The first is that antibiotics are an unecessary way to maximize the edible output (i.e. profit) on factory farms. The second is that animals on factory farms are in such poor health based on the conditions in which they are held that antibiotics are necessary to keep them from being in even more pain while they are being raised (of course neither of these answers the questions of how the antibiotics affect humans). I'm not a doctor or a scientist, so I'm not sure of the answer, but I am curious as to what others think. Your opinions?

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Permalink Reply by Cat on October 28, 2008 at 1:29pm

About the antibiotics... I heard a report on NPR about 5 years ago that stated that they linked the use of antibiotics in dairy cows and beef cows to many forms of cancer in humans. I don't know exact facts, I would have to do some research (imagine that, I feel like all I do is research), but I thought they linked the antibiotics in dairy cows and in dairy products to cervical cancer. I often think that all the research in the world wouldn't provide accurate info on causes of cancer, since there are so many, but it's worth some consideration.

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