Is this orginization in favor of amnesty for Illegal Immigrants???
I am really digging on the ideals that Flobots, and this organization are putting out.
I do wonder if you are in support of amnesty for illegal immigrants, and condone the further addition
of those who seem to have no real understanding of what it means to be an American.
Many of my friends are Americans of Mexican and other racial backrounds, so this is not about Race.
They feel very much that illegal immigration is a problem as well.
I strongly believe that we need to have a country of people that are proud of it. If this organization is
for illegal immigration than I can assure you that it will not have my support, nor the support of my afformentioned friends.
I do believe that there should be a better path to citizenship.
Please give your thoughts:
I do wonder if you are in support of amnesty for illegal immigrants, and condone the further addition
of those who seem to have no real understanding of what it means to be an American.
Many of my friends are Americans of Mexican and other racial backrounds, so this is not about Race.
They feel very much that illegal immigration is a problem as well.
I strongly believe that we need to have a country of people that are proud of it. If this organization is
for illegal immigration than I can assure you that it will not have my support, nor the support of my afformentioned friends.
I do believe that there should be a better path to citizenship.
Please give your thoughts:
Views: 0
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RedWhiteBlue on -
Yah we have a pretty big problem in this area especially.
You might recall that we made the national news a couple years ago
after there was a raid at the swift plant in town. I'm in Northern CO.
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Permalink Reply by Sara Tea on -
I don't think mine is going to be a popular opinion, but I also think that we have to look at the flip side of this accusation. While illegal immigrants might use facilities like the ER and exploit that advantage, studies show that their overall impact on our economy is minimal.
See: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900 or http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/ma/articles/do_illegal_immigrants_h...
Illegal immigrants also pay taxes and, oftentimes if taxes are taken out of their salaries, they don't file for their tax returns.
Also, it was mentioned earlier that right now it is a "one way street" and I think that's a bit unfair. As American citizens, much of our lifestyles exploit and undermine the livelihoods of Mexicans and others south of us, and our government's own actions have helped create a situation in which Mexicans and others have little choice but to leave their families and their homes, risk their lives and come to this country illegally. It's not a glamorous process or option and I can't imagine having to make that decision myself. And it seems to me that a world that creates the desperation needed to push people to make that choice is really the root evil, not the fact that people are taking advantage of opportunities to survive in this country. We should be building a world where human "survival" isn't the acceptable norm, but human life is. So many people are merely "surviving" and why?
I'm also interested in another angle of this thread, which is the idea of countries and patriotism and nationalism. National boundaries have always seemed another form of unnecessary division and silly, man pretending like he rules over this planet by demarcating his territory. And I count "patriotism" in it's historic sense as a manifestation of oppression like other "isms." So what are we defending?
Furthermore, we should very much consider our past and present sins in order to create a country and a world we can be proud of. To blind ourselves to them would be to deny ourselves the opportunity to grow and change and evolve into a nation or culture that is truly deserving of strong national pride.
I'm sorry if some of this seems disconnected, I probably shouldn't try and argue a case as soon as I wake up. Thank you for starting the thread and stirring up discussion about such a complex and tricky subject!
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Permalink Reply by Traveling Zach on -
lol, no sara... i'm glad you added all these to the convo, wish i had something to add...
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Permalink Reply by KJ on -
You said, very eloquently, what I would have said. I agree with your position completely. Thank you for writing this, Sara. Peace!
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Permalink Reply by Justin on
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I dont believe this organization takes a stance on it,but i dont really know.As for myself i strongly feel that every human being has the right to go where he must in order to find work and support his family.why should we be afraid of immigrants because
"we need a country of people that are proud of it" we cant allow false patriotism to be put above humanity.If we want to solve immigration issues we should look at what causes it,which is uncontrolled capitalism that exploits underdevolped nations forcing them to find work elsewhere.What would you do in that situation?
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Permalink Reply by William Nalley on -
It's not false patriotism, it's simple supply and demand. we only have so many jobs in america, and the more people that come here the more those jobs are taken. More people going for a job means the salary caps come down. That's just simple economics. Look at India. they have so many people with PHD's and such that the salary for those jobs is MUCH LESS then they are in America, not for a lack of money, but simply because theres SO MANY people qualified for those types of jobs that the salary caps fell.
While at the moment the overall impact might be "minimal" you have to look at the fact that if we start giving amnesty to illegal immigrant, then more will come. Dont get me wrong, Mexico es Mui Bein. In fact, my Section Chief when i was in the Florida National Guard was Mexican. And i couldnt ask for a better NCO. I'm NOT against Mexicans or hispanics in any since, i'm against all illigal immigrants, be they from England or Mexico, it doesnt matter. THe fact is it's Illegal. It's breaking a law. And most Illegal Immigrants are paid under the table, so there labor can be exploited. Sad thing to say, but it's true. Part of the reason i'm in michigan now is because my inlaws job was taken by an illegal immigrant paid under the table, and took my father in law's job.
You have to look at the fact that offering amnesty to all the people that commit a particular crime, will cause more people to commit that crime.
And to answer your question, i would put in for a work permit for the country i wanted to move to, so i could take my family.
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Permalink Reply by kristine on -
I'm reading what everyone has to say, and it seems that we all agree on an important thing: we all value human life and quality of life. We're disagreeing on the policies we think would serve to support healthy human life, and some of us are wanting to address root causes of illegal immigration, and others of us have had personal experiences where we've been taken advantage of or people close to us have been negatively impacted by illegal immigration...
The core values of FWT are:
Peace: We believe in our ability as creative beings to solve problems nonviolently.
Justice: We believe in acknowledging and addressing past and present acts of violence and oppression.
Respect: We believe in valuing all people in all circumstances.
Dialogue: We believe in engaging in respectful dialogue with others and commit to listening to people who disagree with us.
Sustainability: We believe in making sure all people have the resources and time needed to live a healthy life.
Responsibility: We believe in the power of our individual actions.
Engagement: We believe in embodying the change we wish to see.
The themes of justice and sustainablity are coming up for me in light of this conversation...I'd be curious to hear thoughts in light of these values..
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Permalink Reply by RedWhiteBlue on
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O.K.
So I am just catching up.
I think that to say the impact is minimal is to severely underestimate the impact that this is having
on the system as a whole. Also the standards that you have become use to, things such as food
safety, medicine, transportation, and just about every convenience that we take for granted, are
at some level a result of capitolism. I would like a world without hunger, and homelessness as much
as the next person. The problem is that not every culture is at the same place as we in the states
are.
A couple of examples:
Piracy - could you imagine pirates doing things like what they are doing in somalia right now if
that was the Florida coast? Of course not.
We could argue the symantics of why, but the fact is that their government has not got the will to stop
it.
Mexico - Have you ever been off the beaten path in Mexico? I had the distinct pleasure of taking a 3
hour road trip in Mexico. The traffic was stopped for an accident, so many, many cars started passing
on the left.... down the wrong side of the street. There was no regard for the rules at all. This is cultural.
Maybe one day we will have Peace, and Harmony throughout the world. The problem is that there are
many people in this world that would just as soon slit your throat, as follow your rules. I know this is
a strong visual, but it's fact. It's easy to think that everyone would get along if we just had no borders,
the problem is that human nature will not allow it.
Ask yourself what you are willing to give up for the walls to come down.
Would you give up your Social Security for it?
Would you lower your standard of medical care for it?
Would you lower your childrens level of education for it?
Would you live in a ghetto for it?
Would you change your language for it?
These are just a few things that people should consider before opening the doors to the world.
Sure we have done our share of Bad Deeds, but name me one people that has not equaled them.
We can not let the sins of the past blind us to the risks of the future.
Now examine this thought:
Imagine that all people who want to come here do so by the rules.
Pay Taxes.
Learn the Rules.
Learn the Language.
Pay into Social Security.
Maybe it is harder, but the easy way is rarely the right one.
I can assure yoou that abondoning the rules will not benefit anyone who is currently a citizen of the U.S.
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Permalink Reply by kristine on
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So let's work for the hard solution: let's take responsibility for our foreign policy and learn about its effects - let's talk about NAFTA and CAFTA, and the effects of those trade policies on us and on our neighbors.
Let's be a less arrogant and selfish neighbor, and let's create laws that can be followed. From what I've seen, I agree with Sara that being an undocumented person in this country is nothing but scary and dangerous. I agree with you that the system we have right now is not working, but I think it is the system and our policies that are to blame, not immigrants. I think that people would be happy to do the things you suggest: pay taxes, learn the rules, learn the language and pay into SS if there was that option - if they were able to come legally, and if they weren't demonized and living in constant fear of deportation. Progress will be messy and full of compromises. It's hard to think about what it would look like to address past and present acts of violence and oppression in this realm.
I think I would agree more with what your take if we had local economies, which...I think, would be a lot healthier. I'm for more localized economies. But we don't have local economies - we have a global economy, so you can't just think of the US as the US - we are the US in the context of the rest of the world. We greatly impact the rest of the world, and we will suffer the consequences if we ignore that reality.
I really hate arguing - I'm not trying to be argumentative..I really appreciate the tone of this exchange - I hope I'm being constructive....
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Permalink Reply by Traveling Zach on
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i think then wouldn't it be time to find a new paradigm for our society rather than supply and demand ideals. The idea is that they are coming to this country to better their lives and that of their families and that should really be enough to justify their migration. Lets use your example of Indian PHD's in relation to our immigration policies. If you apply a cap on education, like the supply and demand example on immigrants, isn't that like saying that the ignorance of some is good for our economic system, especially when linked with the idea that it enhances wages for more skilled and educated positions? I think that that idea then is link to also the idea of the 'american dream'... that i must make so much money, to live a certain type of life... Shouldn't really the lowering of our wages to help support those that otherwise would be unable to do so themselves a positive ideal?
lol, or just the idea of wages all together...
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Permalink Reply by RedWhiteBlue on
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Kristine.
I think it is easy to believe that there is no option for legal naturalization to this country, however
according to the DHS 1,046,539 people became legal citizens in 2008, of those 231,815 were from
Mexico. That is 2867 per day, and 119 per hour, that care enough about being a part of this society
to do it legally. I challenge you to find a more liberal immigration policy in the world.
Work cited : http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/natz_fr_...
As far as trade policy the U.S. is the biggest loser in real terms. The manufacturing sector of our
economy has been on a steady decline for decades due to jobs being exported. I think that a large
part of the American populous feels guilty over this, or that and maybe rightly so to some degree.
But what country is doing more good for the world? There is a steady supply of aid leaving this country
, we are the bread basket of the world. I am not saying that we are angels, but we are not demons
either. Policies change with time. If you think that our policies are so bad what about the policies, and
attitudes of some of the other nations involved? How many Black presidents has Mexico had?
What about Canada? France? Germany? Great Brittain? Saudi Arabia? and on, and on.
How many of the above countries have the gender equality of the U.S.?
It's easy to say that because we are priveledged, that we are to blame for the worlds woes, and to
some degree maybe we are, but if you want to say America's open: come on in everybody, then
you lose me.
As far as I am concerned if someone entered the country illegally, then they should be afraid. As
afraid as anyone who commits a crime should be. As far as I am concerned they should turn
themselves in, and deal with the consiquences of their actions. It is much easier to get a work visa
than it is to get citizenship, so if the want to work that is Okee Dokee by me. But when they are done
they need to hit the road. If they want to be citizens, then they can apply, and get in line. Just like
the 1,046,539 people that proudly became citizens of the U.S. last year.
I challenge you to talk to someone who has legally entered this country, and is now a proud member
of this nation about the above subject.
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